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asianthug

Cold Start That Rifle

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1st question...how do i keep from getting skin burn while rapid firing. i know rapid firing ain't good for the gun because the barrel expand, and if let keep going without proper cooling, then it will be deformed evenly. as in being bigger than it was. but sometime, it is fun as hell to rapid fire.

2nd question...how do we cold start a gun...as in shooting it in the cold. car's wear and tear out 80% in cold start. how about gun. i know if u poor hot water into a glass of cold ice cubes, you crack the glass. how about for gun. i know that if you travel with the gun inside the car, then it will be the same temp as much of the car, which is warm. so if you shoot within 5 minutes you'll be ok. but how about if you don't shoot it right away and shoot other guns first. after 1 hour in an outdoor range, the barrel and everthing on that gun will be cold as hell. then you shoot it. does it damage that gun...

please respond with good question only. this is very imporatnt because i am going to apply it.

3rd question...how do u break in a stainless steal metal gun. bushmaster website got a very tedious procedure for breaking in their chromed line barrel. we'll be broke by the time the gun is broken in...

it says:

a) shoot once and clean good. repeat that until 5 shot is fire

b) let cool for 15 minutes

c) shoot 5 shots and clean good. repeat that until 25 shot is fired

d) let cool for 10 minutes

e) shoot 25 shots and clean. repeat until 100 shot is fire

f) your gun is not thorough broken it. you can shoot few hundred round without worry about cleaning.

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:fir: My FAL has metal handguards, and they deffinately get hot after I empty a 20rd clip. I enjoy rapid firing. I don't know about your gun, but I've found that with mine, if I keep my hand away from the front of the handguard, I don't get burned as much. The front of the handguard heats up more because of the vents on the gastube venting into the handguard. The only other thing I can think of is to wear a glove on that hand. I would avoid rapid firing more than 20 or 30 rounds at a time. It probably isn't a good idea to rapid fire more than 20 at once.

If you rapid fire too much, it can actually loosen the barrel. I've seen it happen.

I don't know about the cold start, but I do know that most hunters fire their rifles in freezing, and sometimes sub-zero temps with no apparent problems. After one or two shots, the gun it basically warmed up. I've put like a hundred rounds through my big-bore revolver in freezing conditions before.

I've never had any experience with a stainless barrel, but I do know someone who has an ar-15. They are a lot of work to break in. That's all I know about that.

Maybe something I wrote was helpful. If not, please don't yell at me. -Captain Eddie

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yeah. i know rapid is not good for most gun. if u have m16, u asking for trouble because the tolerence is so little. your m16 will have the accuracy of an ak if u do that. haha. then u have m16 that shoot like a little girl and can't hit nothing. haha.

i rapid fired my gun using 5 burst shot. bang bang bang bang and bang. then i pause for 1 or 2 second and moved to the next target. i let the gun cool for a long time until i fire again. i also clean it too. but i don't rapid fire more than 2 clips though. i shoot do one shot after another and then swich back and forth. regardless, i never shoot 2 clips back to back without letting the gun cool or clean. peope done in at the range. but i don't.

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I never worried about break in when I got my Bushy. Just filled the clips and give her hell. I always give it a quick cleaning when I'm done, and never had any probs. It did seem to get more accurate after a couple hundred rds. but that could have been because I got more used to the rifle. I've always been dumbfounded that everyone thinks these are so hard to clean. I use one of the pull through shoe lace things with a brush in the middle. wipe the bolt and its good to go. Haven't had any gas tubes plug or any of that. Maybe down the road. I'll worry about that when it happens.

The MAK-90 is a fine rifle. I have one and love it. But get hit center mass with a .223 going 3400 fps. your just as dead.

I'd be comfortable makeing head shot @ 100 yds. with the bushy. I wouldn't be with the MAK, its not accurate enough. Less recoil = faster follow up shots more accurate rapid fire.

If the SHTF I'd grab the AR. Mine works. SN/

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WebCAReject.jpg

I can keep a tighter pattern in controlled rapid fire with my CAR15 than I can with any of my Semi AK variants in kneeling or standing. Prone, the NHM-91 with Bipod (RPK Clone) is tought to beat.

I agree with BuckshotBob about if I wanted rapid precision fire, I would grab my CAR. His Bushy is nearly the same thing, except his Stock is the A2, not a pinned open collapsable.

I think we also are good about keeping them clean, so I think that would explain why we don't have any problems. Yes the AK is more reliable for the long haul without cleaning, but accuracy suffers from a dirty bore. Its best to clean the rifle as frequently as possible, no matter what it is.

-Thed

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what the heck???

i found this very disturbing literture in my mak90 owner manual. it says the service life of a mak90 (ak47 for thed) is 6000 rounds. huh. huh again. i shoot a minimum of 200 rounds each time i go out the range. i only shot it twice, 300 rounds the first time and 500 rounds the second time. i got it used, and i am shot the previous owner(s) got to put at least 1000k rounds through it.

i find this number hard to believe. usually, manufacture exagerate your product condition, but i didn't think they'll do it in a negative way. what give guys?

oh, i have been reading a lot of stuffs from very reputable authors from various sources such as gun&ammo, on target, combat handgun, etc., and everyone says that a good break in will insure out of the box accuracy for the life of the rifle. i interpret that as the bullet will shoot straight when you break it in good. i am sure we can sight our rifle and hit things dead on even if the rifle shoot side way. but the rifle will still be wearing evenly, and that will cause resighting from time to time.

maybe bush is trying to cover their ass. their rule of operation is tough. not a drop of water is allow in the barrel or it will explode. i find it hard to believe too. i know if you feel that sucker up with water or tequila, it will explode due to express. but a drop is a little much. people go to war in the rain you know. well, i guess taht's why i love the G1 Scout used by the greatest generation of american (ww2 men).

take this U> brady

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:fir: I don't know what the deal is when the say such short sevice lives. Maybe they mean under real abuse. With some of the older surplus guns, who knows how many thousands of rounds have been fired in them. During Vietnam, Korea, and all the other wars involving AK's, I have to think that more than 6000rds were expended from alot of those rifles. Probably just the manufacturer covering themselves in case you manage to destroy the gun.

With proper cleaning and lubrication, I have to think that the service life of a MAK-90 far exeeds 6000rds. -Captain Eddie

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Norinco China Sports manual. A regular sized paper 8.5x11 folded in half to make a booklet? Is this the manual you are refering to?

-Thed

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it is an actual booklet that came with the gun. it is in nice paper, the kind you get in magazine. and not the regular paper u get for newspaper and stuffs. know what i mean. the smooth kind.

also came with the gun is an empty oil bottle, a sling, and 1 5rd mag. i know there should be 3 5rder and 3 30rds, but i got my used.

i am thinking about getting another ak. i am akaholic now. i love this weapon.

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Well let me just say this, up on one of the top AK sites (I'm sure a link to it exists somewhere on this forum) it's said that the prototype AK fired 13,000 consecutive rounds without failure (I don't know if there was any cleaning in between, I'd assume not) and the only reason they stopped there was because they ran out of test ammo. I've read the service life of an AK can exceed 50,000 rounds, and that's military guns we're talking about. Civilian guns, properly cared for, could probably even go 100,000 or more. From what I hear about the M-16's, the same goes for them as far as actual life goes, only reliability really suffers over time. For that manual, I think they mean it'll only go 6,000 rounds after being dunked in saltwater and sand after every magazine fired with no cleaning... ever.

As far as shooting cold, you have to remember even though the barrel material has shrunk from cold, so has the ammo. I really doubt that cold shooting will cause accelerated wear in any rifle, and since you're talking AK, probably none.

From what I've read about barrel break in procedures, there is none for chrome lined bores. Those recommendations only apply to stainless and blued barrels. When I was 18, I got a remington 700 ADL in .300 win and an H&R SB2 in .223, and not knowing of these break in requirements at the time, proceded to fire hundreds of rounds at a time through them without cleaning. And I'll tell you what, I really don't think it made any difference at all. Both guns are still extremely accurate, and the SB2 still groups at under 1 MOA with the right ammo. In fact it's best group I can remember, which came to .66 MOA, was fired after probably 300 rounds through the gun with absolutely no break in procedure followed. Even though I don't think it matters much, my next new gun I get will definitely be getting a proper break in though.

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yeah, that 6000 service life is really odd. i think i agree with u woody and other folks too. i am just shocked it that number since it is an ak.

hk claim that their handgun can last way over 100 thousand round. u do need to change the tiny rubber 0 ring near the top of the barrel to prevent accessive wear and tear between the barrel and the slide. u change it every 20,000 regardless if u clean the gun or not. the ring probably cost a fortun even though it is just a rubberband. hk is a rip off. it's for people who take their gun to the shop for cleaning and oil change; not a workikng man gun at all.

my taurus is a stainless steel overall. i wanted stainless to the lastin look, plus i think it is cooler than blued steel. it cost a lot more too. i am getting a taurus in 44 magnum that is chrome barrel & blued steel exterior.

so, what't the break-in procedure for stainless steel barrel.

here is what i did:

shoot once, clean. do that 4 times.

shoot 7, clean. do that 3 times. let cool for 5 minutes between cycle because it was 90 degree that day and the gun was too hot to handle.

done.

bushmaster requires the following for its M16A3, which i owned for 1 week and returned due to malfunctioning:

it says:

a) shoot once and clean good. repeat that until 5 shot is fire

b) let cool for 15 minutes

c) shoot 5 shots and clean good. repeat that until 25 shot is fired

d) let cool for 10 minutes

e) shoot 25 shots and clean. repeat until 100 shot is fire

f) your gun is not thorough broken it. you can shoot few hundred round without worry about cleaning.

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Basically I'd say that any break in at all is better than nothing. Those are just recomendations for a break in that will maintain accuracy for the life of the gun. Even if you don't follow them, the only thing that will suffer is accuracy, not barrel life. All they say the break in does is force copper into the open pores of the barrel material (and since chrome lining is so much harder than standard steel this is why they don't require you break in a chrome bore). It just makes the barrel smoother on a microscopic level, and the bullets fly more consitently as a result. On an average gun, I think I'd only do about a 30-50 round break in, cleaning every shot for only the first 10 rounds, and then after every 5 until I hit 50. On a target rifle, I'd do a complete break in.

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as for me, I have no ideas about how to keep from burning your fingers other than what the other folks have suggested (gloves sounds about the best to me)

I wanted to address your question regarding the barrel break-in process that seems to be all the rage these days. I recently bought a very high dollar target/sniper 308 and wanted to make sure I was doing everything right to protect my investment. (SR25 match w/ nightforce optics...I'm not going to brag about how much I spent, but let's just say that my wife will not allow me to buy another firearm for a long, long, long time!). I found a thread on the snipercountry.com archive about this topic from Gale McMillan, barrel manufacturer/designer. He explains a lot about this "procedure" and also how it DAMAGES a barrel.

Gale McMillan

Senior MemberĀ  posted September 25, 1999 10:10 AM

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The break in fad was started by a fellow I helped get started in the barrel business . He started putting a set of break in instructions in ever barrel he shipped. One came into the shop to be installed and I read it and the next time I saw him I asked him What was with this break in crap?. His answer was Mac, My share of the market is about 700 barrels a year. I cater to the target crowd and they shoot a barrel about 3000 rounds before they change it. If each one uses up 100 rounds of each barrel breaking it in you can figure out how many more barrels I will get to make each year. If you will stop and think that the barrel doesn't know whether you are cleaning it every shot or every 5 shots and if you are removing all foreign material that has been deposited in it since the last time you cleaned it what more can you do? When I ship a barrel I send a recommendation with it that you clean it ever chance you get with a brass brush pushed through it at least 12 times with a good solvent and followed by two and only 2 soft patches. This means if you are a bench rest shooter you clean ever 7 or 8 rounds . If you are a high power shooter you clean it when you come off the line after 20 rounds. If you follow the fad of cleaning every shot for X amount and every 2 shots for X amount and so on the only thing you are accomplishing is shortening the life of the barrel by the amount of rounds you shot during this process. I always say Monkey see Monkey do, now I will wait on the flames but before you write them, Please include what you think is happening inside your barrel during break in that is worth the expense and time you are spending during break in

he goes on throughout the thread with some pretty eye opening information. It's in their Articles archive if y'all want to give it a look-see.

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Break in procedure isn't to prolong barrel life, it's to increase accuracy potential. You have to allow copper to force itself into the open pores of the barrel material. To accomplish this, you must clean fouling out after every shot for the first dozen shots or so and semi regularly afterwards and allow the copper to build up.

I'd say break in procedures work. My most recent gun started off printing 1 to 2 MOA groups which dropped to .25-.5 after about 20 rounds. I personally can't see how cleaning a barrel is even remotely like forcing a projectile at 3000 fps under extreme pressures through it. Of course theres a difference between shooting a bullet through it and pushing a cleaning rod through it! But hey, if you don't have an accurate gun to begin with you might not want to do it and it really won't hurt anything in that case.

Edited by wodasini

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i am not sure about my gun doing group shots because i don't have a bench rest to do that. i do know that i clean the fouling after each 2 shot for the first 10 or 15 shots. i can hit head shots at 35 yards with single action mode or 25 yards with double action mode. my revolver gun is a easier to aim because of the longer barrel, but it is heavy to hold it still and pull that super heavy trigger.

i think that you can clean the barrel and re-break in the gun if it is still new (under 1000 rounds). that would increase accuracy. you can also use the bench rest to sight in your gun when it is super clean and start out with a clean slate.

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Probably not. If you had a parts cleaner and let the barrel soak in that for a while, then cleaned it out, then maybe you could start over.

Like I said before, it really doesn't matter much. I didn't break in my L1A1 and the barrel went from a dull grey to shiney like a mirror and it groups in the 2-3 MOA range. Not too bad.

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AsianThug I quess breaking in a gun is ok Ive personaly have never had to ,I have an old SP1 from back in the early 70s that we have put about 25000rd trough it in the last 28 years or so with a 1in12 twist barrel and thats with poping off 30 rounds at a time and still can hit a can at 100 yards, best thing I can till you on that is keep it clean man

Edited by reeljack

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Regarding the cold weather thing, I'm in the military and have done mountain warfare training, the only special considerations we made was that we used a thicker lube. Basically don't worry about it (however I wouldn't recommend sticking a hot barrel in cold snow :D )

U> :)(:

These are cool smilies (hehehehe)

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