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Thed

How Do I Become A Cruffler?

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The process is really quite simple. It requires a clean criminal background, some paperwork, and a check for $30 made out to the BATF.

Before applying for this License, first ask yourself "Do I really wish to be a serious collector?"

By serious collector, I mean do you plan on purchasing 4-5 firearms per year and do not mind keeping accurate records of every C&R firearm you purchase with the license for the next 20+ years?

The cost of the License for 3 years is $30. When you see the prices at a gunshow and compare it to the price of the same rifle at AIM Surplus, quite often the cost of the FFL and the AIM firearm is less than what you see at the show.

So you ask yourself... Why don't I get this License?

Because you are registered as the BATF as a collector, and at the BATF's request, must present your records to verify every firearm you have has been accounted for. Every rifle you buy with the license must be accounted for up to 20 years after your license expires. That can be alot of headache for someone who just wanted to save a few bucks to get a good price on a Mosin.

You do not want to ever tell the BATF "I don't know who has it" as a C&R holder.

That is why I asked if you were "Serious about Collecting", and was aware of the responsibility of the License.

Are you still interested?

Great!

The first thing you do is download this form from the BATF: http://www.atf.gov/forms/pdfs/f531016.pdf

Admin Update: The Collector of Curios and Relics form is no longer available on the ATF website for some strange reason. So you must request one.

How do I get the proper forms?

Online:  go to http://www.atf.treas.gov/dcof/index.htm and request (on the right side of the screen)

“F7CR 5310.16 Application for License (Collector of Curios and Relics) Under 18 U.S.C. Chapter 44, Firearms”

They will ship the forms to you in a week or two.

Phone: Call (703) 455-7801 and put in your request for a “Form 7CR, Curio or Relic application kit”  Again, it will take a week or two to get the forms.

Good resource for the cruffler license process.

Print out Two copies. Fill them COMPLETELY out.

The first copy gets mailed to the BATF.

The second copy is mailed to the Cheif Law Enforcement Officer (CLEO) in your Area. Depending on where you live, this can mean different people. In the City or the Suburbs, this can be the Chief of Police in your Town or City. Usually if you go to Google and type in your town and "police departments" you can get all the information you need on who to send it to.

It is required that you notify your local Police Department that you are applying for this License. I do not think its an issue where they actually have any say in the matter, provided that you have no criminal back ground. Please not that your Specific State or Local Governments may have some additional Laws and regulations regarding this. When Local Governments have problems with it, its mostly due only to the Pistols you can buy.

If you live in a rural area, the CLEO may be your County Sheriff.

I accompany my CLEO copy with a small cover letter saying:

"Here is a copy of my BATF Type 03 Federal Firearms License Application. It is a requirement that I send a copy for you to keep on file. This License allows me to collect firearms the BATF considers historically signifigant. If you have any questions, please feel free to contact me at......."

Now that that is done, Download this form: http://www.atf.gov/forms/pdfs/f533020.pdf

This form MUST be mailed in with the C&R Application you filled out. This form is just a statment to verify that you are a US Citizen. You only have to send this to the BATF.

My Type 01 FFL holder that does transfers of Non C&R items for me says that when you fill out the country blank, put "United States of America" not United States. I guess they think that United States is not specific enough. Mexico is actually the United States of Mexico... or something like that.

OK. Now you have two Envelopes. One with a C&R application, Citizenship Form, and $30 check.

Mail this one to:

Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms

PO Box 845219

Dallas, TX 75284-5219

The other copy Mail to your CLEO.

Thats it, you just got the ball rolling! That was not too hard was it?

Here is the next step. You need to make a "Bound Book" to keep all of your records in. I use a three ring binder and the plastic punched protective sleeves to store my pages (remember, its got to last 23+ years minimum!)

I just downloaded this page http://mywebpages.comcast.net/johnwill10/misc_files/Bound_Book.pdf and print copies as needed. It works great. What I like about the plastic sleeves is it allows me to keep my receipts of the rifle with each of the logged entries.

There is also a bunch of commercial software packages for your bound book. I have not tried them, but you can get them for starting at $20.

So, the application is in the mail, and you have the bound book.

Now, depending on where you live, it will take 4-12+ weeks for them to process your application.

Unless you are Buckshot Bob D>

One day in the mail you will get a Big envelope with books and goodies in it. It is labeled from the BATF.

When mine came, the mailman joked with me... "hey, how many machineguns you got :D ?" I have been talking with my mailman for years and he lives in my neighborhood....

Inside will be books about C&R's, a Book on State Laws (Red Book) and Federal Laws (Green Book).

You will also receive your FFL.

Do Not Sign It!

Never sign the original. Take your original copy, and photocopy it.

Now get a Blue or Red pen and sign the photocopies. The reason for this, is because those who receive it must have an ink signed document saying that you are the license holder. If you sign in Black ink, who is to say that the whole thing is not a photocopy? To avoid confusion sign it in Blue or red Ink.

Then get about 10+ envelopes. Put one signed FFL copy in each and send them off to AIM Surplus, SOG, I/O, AztecGuns, etc. They will keep your FFL on file.

Once they get them, when you order, they already have your name and shipping info. Makes it easy.

Many vendors also give discounts to FFL holders. Sometimes 5-10% of ammo and accessories!

-Thed

Edited by Admin

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Very informative for anyone thinking about applying. I am expecting mine in the mail soon. I do have one question. Do I have to log the C&R's I already own when I receive the license or just the ones I acquire or dispose of after the license is issued?

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That is as much information I have seen about getting a C&R in one place. I did alot of research before I applied for mine and I never heard about the 20 years of record keeping until I sent my application. Not that it would have stopped me, just a little scary to have to keep the records for 20 additional years.

:c)l:

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does the "clear criminal history" mean no misdemeanors/felonies for your whole life? im assuming that's a no compromise issue

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Yes, you can still buy C&R's without the license. You have to fill out a yellow form. But, you can buy a C&R cheaper and have it shipped directly to your home with a license.

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Very informative for anyone thinking about applying. I am expecting mine in the mail soon. I do have one question. Do I have to log the C&R's I already own when I receive the license or just the ones I acquire or dispose of after the license is issued?

C&R eligable firearms owned BEFORE you get your license do not have to be looged. Every C&R firearm you get after does.

does the "clear criminal history" mean no misdemeanors/felonies for your whole life? im assuming that's a no compromise issue

Not sure on the Misdemeanors, but Felony definately means criminal history. I will check the Green book and see if I can find out.

I'm confused, can I still buy curios and relics and other old guns without a C&R license?

Yes. They are regular firearms that you can buy through a dealer. A C&R license allows the holder to buy directly from wholesalers and individuals anywhere in the US, and have the firearms shipped directly to them.

-Thed

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I have often thought about getting a C&R license but from what I have read even those that have one are confused about what you can do with it. I know I can save 20 or 30 bucks on the purchase of a gun, occasionally more but then you usually have to add the shipping, and you don't actually get to pick the gun you get. This is probably a great deal for someone like Thed that wants to collect every variation of every model.

What turns me off is the process and all the record keeping. I have been reading these posts and even those that collect do not seem to know if or when they can sell any of their guns. Even if they can the hassel of background checks and 20 years of paper work make me wonder if it is worth it.

I just got a mod 44 MN in what i consider near new condition for $79, sure I might have gotten one for $49 but I wouldn't have get to choose it, and then add the shipping cost. I would like to add a mod 91/30 also, I passed on the last batch I saw something I couldn't have done if I got it mail order. I love my gun collection but I do not believe I would want a half dozen of each, I would rather have 1 nice one and move on to the next on my list . Sure another SKS would be nice, probably a K-98 Mauser besides my Yugo, a long enfield next to the jungle carbine, probably a few new types as they become available, but not a half dozen of each. It is not that I wouldn't mind getting a half dozen of each but only to find the nicest one in the bunch and sell off the rest.

I am not a fan of gun registration, sure I fill out the yellow paper when I buy a gun but the C&R process seems so much more intrusive and then there is the question of if, how and when you can even sell any of the guns. If I find that it is possible to buy in bulk, keep the best and sell the rest and then move on to the next great deal I would get a C&R in a heartbeat even with the paperwork. Until then I'll pay the extra 20 bucks and pick them out 1 at a time.

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That was a great post BigDog!

I am glad that there is a counterpoint discussion on getting your C&R License that emphasizes the drawbacks.

The record keeping and responsablity is often not worth the savings on a few or several rifles and pistols. The issue of maintaining a "Bound Book" is SO important with the C&R, and forgetting to log in a purchase can get you sanctioned, fined, or in horrible cases of negligence, jail time.

Buying unseen has its drawbacks. I have bought some rifles that are nearly unshootable. What comes to mind is (5) Yugo M-48 Mausers I got for $250 delivered. Two of the rifles have good bores, one is mediocre, and the other two are 24MOA! Was this a good deal? I still think so.

What I have learned (Thanks to Forums!) is that there are certain vendors who stand by the quality of their products, and some who ship out anything. Knowing which does which has helped alot. For example, you are not going to get a "bad" Mosin from Wholesale Gun&Ammo, or Aztec Guns. They stand firm behind their products. Ordering from Century Arms is a different story.

A few months ago I sent a Letter to the BATF trying to get some clarification on if its ok to take my two shot out/rusted out M-48s and build a new rifle on the actions. I also requested some more info on selling/Transfering C&R firearms that I a have looged into my collection. Eventually I will get a response.....

As to sales of the firearms, the License is based around for collecting, not vending. But selling and trading firearms is part of the collecting process. The BATF knows this, and words the issue kind of vague. Sell/Trade is permitted if its the purpose for advancing your collection. This is an issue I am hoping for clarification as well.

Who you sell/trade/transfer the rifle to has alot to do with the issue. I think the BATF will raise eyebrows at alot of "log-outs" in your book to private people with no time elapsing between when you bought the firearm and when you sold it. If you order it, have it shipped, then transfer it to someone else, it could be said you are acting as a firearms dealer.

Eventually I will trade or sell many of the firearms I have. Its part of the plan. Buy now when prices are low, and hang onto them for years or a decade. Then sell them to get new toys for my collection. I truly think this is what the BATF had in mind with the license.

The number of C&R Licenses being issued is growing. It is turning into a huge boom. With the growth of Gunbroker.com, AuctionArms.com, and other firearms auction sites, it makes it quite easy for a person to legally transfer firearms most anywhere in the country. This is one of the issues I am counting on.

In General a C&R firearm is 50+ years old and deemd historically signifigant. As time goes by, the only C&R items that will qualify will be fixed amount. As the stocks of foreign militaries turn to semi/selectfire weapons, the ranks of what can be C&R dwindle. What I am saying is that supplies for Crufflers are deminishing. In ten years I think C&R guys will only be able to buy from other individuals collections. At this time is where values will start to take off.

-Thed

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Thed, I think this board has great C&R info, mostly thanks to you I guess keep it coming. The C&R license is very attractive to me every time someone posts a new SKS, a really nice Mauser or MN at some rock bottom price. I actually downloaded the forms and was ready to send in a check but I kept thinking about "big brother watching me" and it makes me uneasy.

If and until I decide to take the plunge I am content watching for bargins and attending gun shows (Cross Roads of the West is next weekend) adding what I can when I can to my collection. I have been pretty lucky I got a new unissued ChiCom SKS for 89 bucks when they were around, a real nice Enfield jungle carbine, an arsenal refinished Garand some years ago for 2 bills. Most recently my Yugo Mauser and mod 44 MN, both in great shape. Thanks for the tips on the Mosins, I didn't care for them at first but I am really pleased with the one I got (hope it shoots as well as it looks). I guess as long as Big 5 keeps running sales and J&G is only an hour away I can still hook up with what I want at reasonable prices.

BTW I am planning on takeing out the Enfield, Mauser and MN tomorrow to the range, can't wait to compare them all. ok>

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Dutchmaster,

It depends on where you live. Basically, if you call 911 and ask for law enforcement who responds? Police, or Sheriff's Office? If the Police show up, then yes the CLEO is the Chief of Police, if the Sheriff's Office shows, then it is the Sheriff. However, I do not recommend calling 911 just to find out who the CLEO is. Instead, just call your local law enforcement agencies NON-emergency number. Hope this helped!

-vic F}

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A quick question! What do you do if you lose your copy of the FFL 03.

My daughter thought mine was a good practice paper. I know, stupit to lock the guns up but not the licsense.

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OK, I just found this post.

Several questions.

1) This is just a C&R license. What's the prosess/requirements for a regular FFL?

2) Are all types of SKS's considered C&R?

3) What's the required age for these licenses?

4) My state only recognizes BP guns as C&R, so I can't get this to work for me, right? That's why I asked about the FFL.

and

C&R eligable firearms owned BEFORE you get your license do not have to be looged. Every C&R firearm you get after does.

5) So I have to log every C&R gun, whether it was shipped or not? And if I sell a C&R, how do I legally track where it goes till my 20 yrs are up? And is it 20 yrs after I sell it, or 20 yrs after my C&R expires? Do people like AimSurplus and Aztec Arms track C&R's that they sell?

Thanks!

Edited by Mauser Sniper

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OK, I just found this post.

Several questions.

1) This is just a C&R license.  What's the prosess/requirements for a regular FFL?

Place of business, Business License among others. Out the realm of many.

2) Are all types of SKS's considered C&R?

Almost all C&R OK except Chinese and Norinco Imports

3) What's the required age for these licenses?

21

4) My state only recognizes BP guns as C&R, so I can't get this to work for me, right?  That's why I asked about the FFL.

I don't think you have the whole story on NH. The BATF issues C&R Type 03 FFls to that state.

and

5) So I have to log every C&R gun, whether it was shipped or not?  And if I sell a C&R, how do I legally track where it goes till my 20 yrs are up?  And is it 20 yrs after I sell it, or 20 yrs after my C&R expires?  Do people like AimSurplus and Aztec Arms track C&R's that they sell?

Thanks!

You have to keep your log/bound book for 20 years after your license expires. During these 20 years, any C&R weapon you acquired with your license must be accounted for. If you sell a firearm, you log it out of your bound book.

All FFL's are required to keep records. Including the major vendors.

-Thed

Edited by Thed

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OK, so does that mean to get a regular FFL (non-C&R) I have to also have some sort of business permit?

And the NH State Contitution states that "Antiques, defined as any handgun "utilizing an early type of ignition," such as flintlocks, percussion and pin fires, are exempt from the above regulations. No handgun which utilizes centerfire or rimfire cartridges will be considered an antique.

".

Link

Does the BATF supercede that?

Edited by Mauser Sniper

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I just realized that said "Handgun". Does that mean this definition only applies to handguns and Rifles can still be C&R or that only handguns can be C&R?

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Antiques are typically classifies as firearms produced on or before 1898. Curio & Relics are firearms produced after 1898, which the BATF specifies as Collectors items. The base rule of thumb for C&R items is that they are designs that are at least 50 years old, or have some limited or novel purpose.

-Thed

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Thed,

I am having trouble linking to the 1st form. Is there a name for it? I tried diggin around on the ATF website and just came up with the FFL application. Is that the same as the C&R?

EPOCH

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It appears that the BATF has now removed the PDF download. You have to now order the forms Here: F 5310.16 (F7CR) .

This is rather odd, for it was not mentioned in the BATF newsletter. I think it may because of the recent flood of C&R applications over the past few years.

Perhaps the old link will show up. I was experiencing problems with the ATF website. Was a bit slower than I recall.

-Thed

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