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700HE and 12GA FH

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Myself (Ed Hubel) and others on the AR forums have done alot of bigbore wildcattting.

One of our projects is the 12GA From Hell.Like rifle/shotgun a takeoff of the

the old African Paradox guns, only a ten times better brass case.

Rob from the forum came up with the name and original concept.

We built the case from BMG brass and Rob chambered a big falling block,

a Borchardt 50 BMG action, with heavy rifled barrel.

I chambered a Savage 210 bolt-action, with a heavy barrel and a

weighted stock.

Here is a photo of my Savage and the second photo is the 12GA From Hell

next to a standard plastic case.I have one case I fired 36 times and

sectioned it and there was no stretching.Regular plastic

cases will fire in our chambers also, so it's technically

still a shotgun-cartridge, gun.

I also have developed my 700HE belted straight case from BMG brass.

See the last photo on the far right or bottom.Ed.




Edited by Admin

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Eldon-Left to right-408 CheyTac-- A T-rex necked to 416--

600 OK a belted case developed on AR forums---My 510HE a rimmed

case made by straightening out 475 #2 brass---My 585 HE---

3.25" 700H-- 12GA FH-- 700HE full length.The last most powerful...

Here is picture of the 12GA FH case I reloaded and fired 36 times,

sectioned, showing no thinning. And It wasn't resized on the

bottom half at all, and case fell out of the chamber.3 biggest Cases

made from bmg brass will last forever.Ed


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That is a monster! Did you chrono it? What weight slug were you using?

(out of the 700HE that is)

Edited by macshooter

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macshooter- In the big Savage 210 bolt gun,

I've shot light sabots, 3/4 oz to 3900 fps. 500 gr lead

heat treated slugs to 37-3800, 600 gr heat treated to 3200, 730 gr

to 2900, 1050 gr to 2600.Rob has shot 1000 grainers in his at

3200.His gun can go higher pressures.Heat treated hardened slugs

I get from Dixie slugs in FL. So hard they don't lead rifling

at our high speeds.In my NEF Ultra Slug gun that came with heavy barrel

and I lengthened chamber for long case. top load is 600gr

at 2500. I see you found a thread somewhere. The car, now a

titled Lincoln pickup, was hit in the back and we needed a

heavy hauler/unique vehicle, so we built one.The boy and

I haul huge bundles of slabwood for our hot water heating furnaces,

and most pickups won't do it, but this does. And I still go to town in

comfort and style.And I'm the least eccentric of the big bore

nuts on AR, as some are many times millionaires and they

love their guns more than life...Ed

Edited by hubel458

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500gr @ 3700fps = 15,200 ft lbs. That is truely impressive.

The 730gr load works out to 13,600 ft lbs.

That out classes the 50BMG in terms of energy and diameter, though probably not in effective range.... I'm sure that would explode just about any North American game, save maybe a huge grizzly or a polar bear.

I saw you are cooking up a 900HE out of 20mm Vulcan brass? I guess you are giving people like JD Jones a run for their money eh?

Edited by macshooter

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Here's something I grabbed from another forum.

Shot a 610 grain hollowpoint Dixie hard

slug into 6 gallon sealed pail of water.

Going 2800 fps, and real big hollowpoint.

First pic is pail with crimped on top.

Pail full and has filler spout capped.

Second pic,impact with water atomising,

and pail blowing apart.In the next small

fraction of a second is third after impact

with shelf cleared, the hyrostatic pressure

down, has bent top of steel frame shelf.

Same blast put jug pieces all over.

Got to get a 15 gallon one. Behind

you see my wood bundle backstop...Ed




Looks like FUN!

Hydrostatic pressure huh? I used to put two gallons of water about 6 inches apart and hit one with a .308, and watch them both explode. I never knew what to call it though...

Edited by macshooter

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macshooter- We have a lot of help locally and a huge

amount of help and support across the net.

We(Rob, John, I and others) never

could do it alone. especially getting info and

figuring out where supplies and parts are.

Like John at Bridger bullets made the rims for

our cases with CNC machine.And many different

guys sent their slugs for testing.Ed

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That's awesome. So you can get around the "destructive device" definition because it's a 12 gauge shot gun right? How about the 900? Is that a 4 gauge "shotgun"?

Are you going commercial with it - custom rifles, and brass and such?

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I'm not licensed to build for others, and we have others that make barrels,

other setting up to make rims/cases, bullet suppliers. We are working on

a larger big bore falling block design at reasonable price for these cases

and plan on finding someone to make them. The Savage can be had for

400 bucks and have heavy barrel and stock added. but present big bmg

bolt actions and falling block actions are many thousands, which

we hope to overcome.Our other testing for regular plastic cases and guns in

12ga has found ways to get way over 4000 ft lbs, so guys can get

a start at big bores with simple process.The case we made with 20 mm bras is

a 4bore case, identical to the one used in many doubles made

by Owen in TN and matches slug diameter made by Naval Ord in WV.Ed

Edited by hubel458

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Ah. The picture is now becoming clear. You are trying to bring the power of the most powerful big bore wildcats, down to a level where an average guy can afford to build it with a little help from you guys? I'm sure the brass will be expensive, but it should last a really long time. Will need a new 50BMG press to load.

Which AR forums are you on? Could give us link?

You think a guy could into the game with $1000 or less, for the rifle? I know you built yours for less, but I'm talking about folks that don't know how to do the work themselves.

Edited by macshooter

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Go to http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve

and find big bore forum.Savage is $400, 30" barrel

from Bauska $200, big press, some cases, pad etc, would get

up around 1000 bucks.If you did own work.

If your into shotgun plastic case reloading

or 3" Rocky Mtn bras cases, buy a $225

NEF Ultra, a savage as original, other modern steel

guns, good used cases,, roll crimper for drill press,

slugs, cut the cost and using our 4759 powder losds

get your feet wet in the recoil business.Ed.

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After digging around some, all I can say is WOW. You guys are really on the ragged bleeding edge of the obscure monster wildcats. It's almost like John Linebaugh or Frank Barnes dropping in to chat with us or something. Very cool. I'm a fan of stuff like this. Mostly familiar with the handgun variety of cannons, mainly because really really big rifles are *INSANELY EXPENSIVE*. Even for the 50BMG, it's usually several grand to start, and that's a cheap rifle. I never gave any thought to anything beyond that, let alone a custom rifle chambered in an uber obscure wildcat that can deliver 50BMG X2 levels of power. It boggles the mind.

How much does that Savage you built weigh? (edit: found that -25lbs)

What do you have to do to the NEF ultra to play in the 4000 ft lbs neighborhood? Do you need a shotshell press? It there anyway to do it with a big 70's rockchucker? Dies? Components? You say you need a roll crimper for a drill press? I'd like to know everything about it. If you can send me the information, or point me to where it is I would really appreciate it. Feel free to PM.

I signed up on the AR forum, but they haven't appoved me yet. If it's there I'll probably find it.


Must read thread for all those interested in this: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=178655

You guys appear to be going for the record for the most powerful non-military rifles and cartridges ever made. (If you haven't acheived that already with 23,000 ft lbs in the Borschardt actions.) I am not aware of anything even close to that powerful. Do you know what the energy numbers on the 950 JDJ were?


Antibubba- this even, as big as it is, isn't

ultimate stopper for game, bunch of us are going to

make 2 and 4 bores.I also have 700HE with more

power to test in a couple months, and down

the road the 900HE.Here is pic for

your pleasure, of 4 our bore cases,

with 2000gr bullets, next to 20mm brass we make

them from, and 06 case for comparison.Ed.


Edited by macshooter

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I just finished reading the entire high road thread. All 13 pages of it. I found most of what I needed to know about the NEF. 4800 ft lbs with plastic shells...

You Sir, are in an entirely different catagory of gun nut, the likes of which I have never seen or met before. You're knowledge of load development and wildcating is awesome. I am astonished and amazed at what you are doing. I find it incredibly intertaining, and totally insane. I wish I had the knowledge and experience to even sit around and daydream about taking on a project like that. What an excellent way to retire.

Please don't blow yourself up Mr. Hubel. I want to hear more about this. In particular when you get the big falling block built and ready to test.

You got any more 700HE cases with a slug in it? I'd love to buy one from you. I will probably pick up one of those NEF ultras too - just for "kicks."

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macshooter- I think RCBS has 12ga dies for big presses.

I have quite afew 700 cases, Email me for 700 case with a

1000 gr slug.Only charge costs. There are many over on AR

and in the shooting business/industry who

are bigger wildcatting nuts than I am, as they do a

lot more. The 950 JDJ was really shortened case built on

20mm brass. Wouldn't have anymore powder room than our

700HE or 12GA FH, so maybe the same power. The 4bore case

we made is full length, and .998-1.00 bore and with

heavy strong barrel I will use, could be loaded to

34,000 plus ft lbs, locked in my recoil rest.Ed

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Insane....but, man, I love this stuff.

Like mac, I would love to have one of those 700HE cases with a slug in it to show a gunsmith buddy of mine.

Edited by hickbob

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hickbob - email about the cases..Here is pic of my NEF with

super heavy thumbhole stock, I have chambered for 12GA FH.

It has shot 600gr Dixie slugs at 2500 in long brasss case and

same slug at 1900 in 3.5" plastic cases, same slug at

1800 in 3" plastic case. Last two are with IMR 4759 powder

that we found that works good, as part of researching ways to

get power out of 12 gauges for shotgun folks.Ed


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I think I need a napkin......

My hunting group picks at me for hunting feral hogs with a .444 Marlin.

I couldn't imagine what they would say if I walked up with THAT.(not to actually shoot a hog with)

Heck, there wouldn't be anything left but a ham if I was lucky.

I shot you an e-mail

Edited by hickbob

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Bob- Email didn't get through. Maybe send a PM.

Theres a bunch of AR guys that test their

big bores on hogs in Texas hunts. That's

really good practice for bigger game later on .Thing about

our long cartridges they can be loaded moderate

for deer and hogs. Shotgun only deer hunters(there

are millions of them) using our faster plastic

case slug loads can get best of everything.

IE have a 150 yd point blank range, but yet flatter nose

bullets don't travel couple miles in case of a miss,

if elevated, for safety in built up areas, the reason

they made shotgun only areas.Here is pic showing

a variety of slugs a soft foster slug

and 3 heavier hardened slugs.Ed


Edited by hubel458

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Ed, I have sent a PM to you.

I read your post on THR forums.......I am in awe. I don't know what else to say. I could only dream of taking on a

project like some of yours as passionately as you have.

Keep up the good work and keep us informed on your progress.

Oh, and, mac, thanks for the link. I was a forum member at THR and never even saw that post.

Edited by hickbob

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NP Hickbob, I had to find out more about this so I want digging around.

Actually, after thinking on it for a while, I think I have changed my mind about it. This stuff isn't interesting anymore because it's just not practical, and don't want to look like I have magnum syndrome or anything like that. Really large powerful calibers like this are just not necessary. So I think I'm going to sell my 500 mag, my .44, and 10mm. From now on it's going to 9mm or .40 for me, and nothing larger than .308 in a rifle caliber. It's just time for me to grow up and be more mature and practicool practical.



This kind of stuff is awesome. I love it. I don't do any hunting, but I can see where a slug that doesn't drop at all for 150 yrds could be useful for those limited to shot guns. It wouldn't be affected much by wind. It's a killer brush buster. I don't think it would be much good for hiking around though (the NEF would be ok for that), and follow up shots might be tough, but I don't think you would need more than one shot if you hit what you are aiming at! Anything you hit will probably drop right where it stands, so you wouldn't have to chase it down. Shot placement would be less of an issue. Humane kills are almost always assured. It would take a lot of practice to master a gun like that, to where you could use it to hunt. That would be a plus for some folks, and a minus for others. It would be plus for me.

There is nothing like shooting the really big stuff. It's a rush you just don't get from the smaller calibers. I guess one would have to experience it that to know what I mean. It's a lot of fun to learn how to control something like that. It's a mental challange as much as a physical one. But it's not for everyone I guess...

Anyway. Kudos to you Mr. Hubel! Keep up the good work. I look forward to reading about it. :okay:

Edited by macshooter

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I will be posting more research on this thread

about other powders in 12ga plastic cases,about the

12GA FH loads, about scaled up falling blocks, my 700HE long

belted case, and the 28GA FH.Here is picture of

some other cartridges I have with some of mine.

1st= 408CT, 2nd- T-rex necked to 416- 3rd- 600OK

4th- 510HE, 5th-585HE, 6th-700H 3.25, 7th-12GA FH,

8th-700HE. Last most powerful. Ed


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Another experiment in shotgun/rifle realm is

28GA From Hell. 28ga is .550 bore and with 550Mag

barrels & bullets being made it is a natural. Have one

on bolt gun ready to chamber.Chamber still

will fire shorter cases..Ed


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