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Center Axis Relock (C.A.R.) System


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#1 Knight

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Posted 27 December 2008 - 07:03 AM

This is probably one of the strangest and unique shooting styles I have seen in awhile:

Center Axis Relock

There is obviously a lot to this system than a weird shooting stance, but the first thing that I noticed about the system is that you use your eye opposite your "dominant" hand to aim. If that isn't weird enough, you also hold the handgun at an angle and keep it close to your body.

While I am tempted to dismiss it, I did read a lot of material on the site, particularly regarding left-handedness, and I am pretty impressed with the amount of research that went into developing this system. Basically, the inventor used a ton of physiology and psychology to shape and refine his ideas.

Here's a 3rd party site that has a detailed description of C.A.R.:

THE C.A.R. SYSTEM OF GUNFIGHTING

I don't know how old the system is, but I know it's been around for at least 5 years. What's your guys' take on it? Legit, or full of it?

Also thought I should mention that Sabre Tactical doesn't teach C.A.R. to civilians, only military and LEO.
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#2 Cyclops01 Re: Center Axis Relock (C.A.R.) System

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Posted 27 December 2008 - 07:04 PM

Strong hand, non dominant eye... I'd be so totally dead!!! rofl.gif

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#3 JSheaHawk Re: Center Axis Relock (C.A.R.) System

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Posted 28 December 2008 - 09:21 AM

This topic has popped up a couple times on here. It's interesting, but I'm curious as to why it hasn't gained favor.

Jared
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#4 SeanMiller Re: Center Axis Relock (C.A.R.) System

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Posted 28 December 2008 - 11:35 AM

Things like this always stink to me of being a Sooper Sekrit Squirrel club for the most tactical of mall ninja's out there. If the system is so amazing, why is it so rarely taught? What makes it so special that ONLY LEOs and .mil should get to learn it?

This just reeks of snake oil to me.
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#5 Riot Re: Center Axis Relock (C.A.R.) System

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Posted 29 December 2008 - 07:48 AM

*Poor stance (too much is being sillouted)
*What is with the chicken-wing?
*Why cant the sights unless you are looking around a corner?

I don't know, it just seams like you're throwing most of the fundamentals out the window (sight alignment, trigger squeeze).
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#6 Knight Re: Center Axis Relock (C.A.R.) System

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Posted 29 December 2008 - 07:19 PM

There is actually a civilian version of C.A.R. that they will teach to civilians, without all the S.W.A.T.-specific training stuff. They even have a different name for it, which I cannot recall at the moment.
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#7 ChemSoldier Re: Center Axis Relock (C.A.R.) System

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Posted 08 August 2009 - 08:41 PM

I am sure he has some decent stuff in all that. However there are probably some good things to cherry pick, I seriously doubt it is time to throw out everything you learned previously. Even if it is all that and a bag of chips, most of us who have been shooting a bit would probably revert to type under pressure anyway.

Plus, some of it looks dumb....
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#8 Riot Re: Center Axis Relock (C.A.R.) System

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Posted 08 August 2009 - 09:43 PM

FYI, I wish to resend my last post and state that currently I am trying to adapt a bit from this technique...it keeps everything tight while still able to strike with either elbow and the pistol since you have them close to the body (like a cocked back fist). It's tactics are perfect for CQC.
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#9 emclean Re: Center Axis Relock (C.A.R.) System

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Posted 10 August 2009 - 07:46 AM

i would like to see him shooting like that at more than arms leangth. it is real hard to miss paper that close.
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#10 JSheaHawk Re: Center Axis Relock (C.A.R.) System

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Posted 10 August 2009 - 12:42 PM

That's the point he's making. Most engagements happen at less than seven feet.

Jared
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#11 ChemSoldier Re: Center Axis Relock (C.A.R.) System

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Posted 10 August 2009 - 01:52 PM

This may be a radical idea, but how about trying not to get into close range gunfights. Obviosuly it isnt always possible, but the use of obstacles, body positioning and verbal commands try to keep the distance open with threats. The statistics say most gunfights are at close range, but they also say the trained officer, soldier or armed citizen has a decisive advantage as the range increases.

I like how trainers are trying to address the problems we face. But lets not forget the tale of the B17 armor in WWII....

Once upon a time the B-17 bomber went through an upgrade (dont remember if it was the B-17G or H model). The variant had more powerful engines and could carry a heavier load. The designers magnanimously decided to use some of the weight for more armor (or armour if you are from Australia). They sent their engineers to B-17 bases in England to find out where it should go. They made charts of where B17s were getting hit and planned to armor those areas. Then some smart man realized, "Wait a minute...this is where they are getting hit, and still getting home..."

I guess what I am trying to say is that great, lets train to fight at extreme close quarters, but lets at least spend as much time figuring out how to keep the range with threats.
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#12 JSheaHawk Re: Center Axis Relock (C.A.R.) System

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Posted 10 August 2009 - 03:01 PM

The guy who invented the CAR system is a LEO. I can only assume that's where he's trying to sell it. You're in close to talk to people or in a house when the SHTF. Not much choice in initial environment.

Jared
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#13 Riot Re: Center Axis Relock (C.A.R.) System

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Posted 10 August 2009 - 03:49 PM

This may be a radical idea, but how about trying not to get into close range gunfights. Obviosuly it isnt always possible, but the use of obstacles, body positioning and verbal commands try to keep the distance open with threats. The statistics say most gunfights are at close range, but they also say the trained officer, soldier or armed citizen has a decisive advantage as the range increases.

I like how trainers are trying to address the problems we face. But lets not forget the tale of the B17 armor in WWII....

Once upon a time the B-17 bomber went through an upgrade (dont remember if it was the B-17G or H model). The variant had more powerful engines and could carry a heavier load. The designers magnanimously decided to use some of the weight for more armor (or armour if you are from Australia). They sent their engineers to B-17 bases in England to find out where it should go. They made charts of where B17s were getting hit and planned to armor those areas. Then some smart man realized, "Wait a minute...this is where they are getting hit, and still getting home..."

I guess what I am trying to say is that great, lets train to fight at extreme close quarters, but lets at least spend as much time figuring out how to keep the range with threats.


http://video.yahoo.c...2181333/6904086

So- I guess I'm supossed to conduct interviews at (+21) feet? Obviously the video is a little outdated...but when you come around corners and search in buildings, when people aproach you with questions and when you're in your vehicle and get ambushed, training tactics such as these may save your life. I, personally, like to take a little bit from different tactics (that work) and try to apply them how they work for ME. At work, they say I HAVE TO turn my magazines with the bullets facing toward my belt buckle...I think it's nieve to say how I HAVE to do something or have to have something a specific way. If it's not comfortable, why do it? Yeah, yeah I know some retard would put his pistol on his opposite side and cross-draw if he could, but why can't I adjust the mags the way that is best for me? Why can't I have my baton on my support side and next to my OC? Why does my gear placement get dictated by someone who hasn't ever been in a leathal force confrontation?
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#14 ChemSoldier Re: Center Axis Relock (C.A.R.) System

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Posted 10 August 2009 - 04:28 PM

I understand that in many cases keeping the distance open is not possible, especially for LEOs. Does CAR give any advantage on drawing faster? It certainly seems decisively better for weapons retention.

Good video on the knife attack times Riot. Looks like no matter what system you use, you are in big trouble at close range with a knife wielding attacker. You might kill him but you are probably going to get cut. I suppose you could get those Batman forearm guard thingies...

How do you do this stuff when you work in partners? Do you tend to have one keep their distance a bit so one person has some distance and potentially a shot? Or do you both close in so you can both get into it if it turns into a tussle? I have never trained with a partner who is on equal footing (the wife and I have rehearsed her moving away from the threat with the baby while I keep the bad guy entertained).
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#15 CulminatingJoe Re: Center Axis Relock (C.A.R.) System

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Posted 10 August 2009 - 05:11 PM

Most police (well, at least here anyway) work on standing at what is known as the '2 and a half'. One will be talking to Mr Crook, front on (at the crook's '12 o'clock' if you will) and reasonably close. The other will be initially stand at the crook's 9 or 3 o'clock and be able to observe the crook's back and take action from there. The partner won't be any closer than the LEO talking and often is a bit further away. Over the course of a conversation the partner might drift a bit more around to ~ 8 o'clock or 4 o'clock so as to get a really good look at the crook's back, then back to the 9/3 position.

Assuming both LEOs aren't asleep, it makes it a bit hard for the crook to attack one LEO without the other being able to step in and throw a cheap shot at his head. Or for the crook to draw a weapon and be able to attack the two LEOs at completely different angles.

I once had a crook decide he didn't like me (hey, how could he not like ME? C'mon!) and rushed at me while we were talking on his front yard. I threw a right hand which skidded off his stupid forehead and it didn't stop him from closing the gap and starting to wrestle with me. It didn't last long though cause the partner trotted in and hit the crook from side on so hard I swear I saw his jaw land on his opposite shoulder. Fight over.
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#16 JSheaHawk Re: Center Axis Relock (C.A.R.) System

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Posted 11 August 2009 - 01:29 AM

How do you do this stuff when you work in partners? Do you tend to have one keep their distance a bit so one person has some distance and potentially a shot? Or do you both close in so you can both get into it if it turns into a tussle? I have never trained with a partner who is on equal footing (the wife and I have rehearsed her moving away from the threat with the baby while I keep the bad guy entertained).

I have this image of you with a top hat and a cane. :laughing1:

Most police (well, at least here anyway) work on standing at what is known as the '2 and a half'. One will be talking to Mr Crook, front on (at the crook's '12 o'clock' if you will) and reasonably close. The other will be initially stand at the crook's 9 or 3 o'clock and be able to observe the crook's back and take action from there. The partner won't be any closer than the LEO talking and often is a bit further away. Over the course of a conversation the partner might drift a bit more around to ~ 8 o'clock or 4 o'clock so as to get a really good look at the crook's back, then back to the 9/3 position.

Assuming both LEOs aren't asleep, it makes it a bit hard for the crook to attack one LEO without the other being able to step in and throw a cheap shot at his head. Or for the crook to draw a weapon and be able to attack the two LEOs at completely different angles.

I once had a crook decide he didn't like me (hey, how could he not like ME? C'mon!) and rushed at me while we were talking on his front yard. I threw a right hand which skidded off his stupid forehead and it didn't stop him from closing the gap and starting to wrestle with me. It didn't last long though cause the partner trotted in and hit the crook from side on so hard I swear I saw his jaw land on his opposite shoulder. Fight over.

Yep. One is in front (but not directly) in the field interview position (gun bladed away), and the other officer is somewhere behind (but not directly...friendly fire=bad juju) the subject or behind and offset from the first officer (in confined spaces) as a cover officer.

On an off note, loose fitting clothing is the god damned bane of my Taser existence.

Jared
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#17 macho999 Re: Center Axis Relock (C.A.R.) System

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Posted 11 August 2009 - 03:21 AM

On an off note, loose fitting clothing is the god damned bane of my Taser existence.

Jared



I'll have to keep that in mind next time I get plastered and try to fight random people, trees, trash cans or buildings. Usually I do this with nothing on but a rebel flag bandanna and a smile.

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#18 SBHShooter Re: Center Axis Relock (C.A.R.) System

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Posted 11 August 2009 - 11:36 AM

This may be a radical idea, but how about trying not to get into close range gunfights.

Nice in theory, almost impossible in practice. Remember that almost all military and LEO engagements are reactive, you can't bear down a weapon on every person that gives you a stink-eye, unless they are overtly threatening you are at the whim of when they "say go."

I threw a right hand which skidded off his stupid forehead and it didn't stop him from closing the gap and starting to wrestle with me.

I'm a fan of the forearm and elbow, especially aiming for a broad target like the chest/shoulder, or a forearm "across the neck", but not at the neck because that's considered excessive force. Get the elbow in there in the center of his chest and grab onto his shoulder and there is no way he can get into 1.5 foot range (however long your upper arm is.) If he tries to go low on you you can put your forearm directly on the back of his neck and twist your bodyweight out, puts all the weight down on him and he's, politely, screwed.

At work, they say I HAVE TO turn my magazines with the bullets facing toward my belt buckle...I think it's nieve to say how I HAVE to do something or have to have something a specific way.

On which side? I always make my mags face "clockwise" if I'm looking down at them, when I put them in my hand I want the round pointing towards my thumb. When I load up I want the Suzie fingers on my firing hand side of the grip, I can't think of any other way to put them actually.
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#19 Riot Re: Center Axis Relock (C.A.R.) System

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Posted 12 August 2009 - 05:24 AM

Shooter, if you're right handed- the mags would be on your support (left) side and vise versa. They want me to place my index finger on the front of the mag and guide it up into the mag well. So I have to grab the mags as if I'm masturbating backwards with my thumb towards my belly-button (like my anology there?).

It's all fine and good for people who have never reloaded a pistol or carried them on a belt before...however, it's an akward way to pull out your mags and a slow, deliberate way to reload (IMHO). I say, if it works for YOU, then go for it! People have different hands, fingers and arm lengths...which is why I'll NEVER be in favor of "standardization" of any gear on your belt (except for maybe the radio).
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#20 ChemSoldier Re: Center Axis Relock (C.A.R.) System

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Posted 12 August 2009 - 07:05 AM

I say, if it works for YOU, then go for it! People have different hands, fingers and arm lengths...which is why I'll NEVER be in favor of "standardization" of any gear on your belt (except for maybe the radio).

A-F*cking-men...when I joined the Army it was all about the standardization (I joined before 9/11). After a few years of war even those spit and polish types in the 82nd had gone to the "what works for you" school. The only thing we standardize anymore is placement of first aid equipment.
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#21 SBHShooter Re: Center Axis Relock (C.A.R.) System

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Posted 15 August 2009 - 03:12 PM

Shooter, if you're right handed- the mags would be on your support (left) side and vise versa. They want me to place my index finger on the front of the mag and guide it up into the mag well. So I have to grab the mags as if I'm masturbating backwards with my thumb towards my belly-button (like my anology there?).


That's kind of how I reload, but with a different grip. They're telling you to pinch grip the mag front/back with your index finger/thumb? I put mags on rounds front, but I grab the mag on the side with my middle and ring finger and thumb on the other side, there is much more control over the mag with 2 points. If you just use the index finger I could easily see that mag twisting side to side like your finger was a hinge, and that just would not be good.
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#22 Riot Re: Center Axis Relock (C.A.R.) System

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Posted 20 August 2009 - 11:25 PM

They're telling you to pinch grip the mag front/back with your index finger/thumb?


Yup...however, I tinkered around with where and how I like my mags to be before I made it a habit. Currently, I favor the mags on my support side, facing down with the bullets facing away from my belt buckle.

I have long, skinny arms. I like to keep everything tight and into my body. With the mags this way, I roll my elbows in instead of chicken-wing out when I reload. I also use a modified weaver stance so that I display a smaller target.

Over the years I've adapted my own styles and techniques. I can reload and shoot with either hand, shoot with both eyes open (unless I'm on a scope with 4x power or more) and can shoot and walk. There are many instructors that have tried to "beat into my head" their own methods and styles...I had one that said that there was no way I could walk and shoot with a modified weaver, but I proved them wrong.

Again, do I agree with the CAR method? Yes, but only parts of it...I think if a target is THAT close, you should shoot it with whatever stance you have or as you're unholstering to get rounds down range. I also only favor "tilting" the weapon around tight corners (like during room searches and such).
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