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hubel458

700HE and 12GA FH

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hubel458    0

Falling block work slow. To much to do this spring

to make a living, and some expensive breakdowns,etc.

The folks at 50 Cal suggested we write up a

piece on the 12GA FH. Interested in what we

did to make hairy cartridge using 50 cal brass

adapted to the 12 gauge shotgun platform.

A job for Rob to do? His wild idea has been

viewed about 400,000 times in the forums

we put it in.Ed

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hubel458    0

Anyone got any long 12ga rifled 30" plus

barrels, 1.3" plus diameter. Barrel

guy is shutting down and returning funds.

Been waiting for 12ga heavy barrel for

87 levergun since last summer.Boy it is

hard getting projects done.Was waiting for

barrel for 700 project also as long.Ed

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hubel458    0

Here is a simple outline of what we've done with

our project we call the 12GA From Hell.

Some folks have asked us to do this.

A. The idea for this and the name was by

Robgunbuilder on the AR forum. We figured out how

to make a long brass case, from BMG brass by

machining rims and the case to screw them on.

We ended up with case after mouth was

annealed, fireformed, and expanded to 12ga,

that was 3.85" long, with a big BMG primer.

B. Rob put his in a big Borchardt falling block,

a gun that can take full BMG type pressures.

It had firing mechanision that fired primers ok.

Example top load is a 1000gr turned brass slug at

3100 plus fps, and a 7/8oz 12ga sabot at

4300 fps.

C. First of mine in a Savage 210 bolt shotgun with a

heavy rifled 31" barrel. My loads in this were kept

below 35,000 psi. Giving loads of 2700 fps with

a 730 gr hard lead slug, and 3900 with 3/4oz sabot.

Second gun was a NEF Ultra that I lengthened chamber

to take long case. Top loads are 600gr hard slug

at 2500 plus fps.Both Savage and NEF had to have

firing mechanisions beefed up to fire BMG primers.

D. We cut cases back to use in 3" chambers but

all guns have to have beefed up hammers, etc,

to fire the big BMG primers.The BMG primers

fired the slow rifle powders ROB and I

were using very well, no misfires.

So tried 3" RMC brass cases, regular plastic cases,

our cut back cases with primer bushings, all with

smaller regular rifle or shotgun primers,

that regular hammers or firing pins fire ok,

and found out that our slow rifle powder loads

wouldn't fire reliably with small primers.

The slow powders in large diameter cases

needed BMG primers to work. So to use small primers-

E. We went to much more research. We found that

slow powders could be fired with a 10 gr of a

fast shotgun starter powder, under the slow powder,

using small primers. This concept has beeen

used in NE cases. We also searched for rifle

or pistol powders slower than shotgun powders,

that would fire with small primers and no starter,

that didn't up peak pressure to fast as

we increased loads to increase velocity.

We didn't want to over expand RMC brass or

blow out the rims on regular plastic cases

We found three- IMR 4759, VV-N110, and 7383 surplus.

These powders are easier to load for slugs without

the problems of fast shotgun powders pushing up

the peak pressures to quick, as you try to increase

loads to up the velocity. We use a minimum

thickness overpowder wad or other wads in the loads

under the slugs as needed. We had lab test 4759

loads with 600gr slug and pressures were little less

than the magnum REM Buckhammer factory loads, but

we got 400 fps more velocity. The Buckhammer

slug and locked on wad is about 600 gr.Both our tested

loads and Rem loads are 3" plastic.Our loads are for heavy

barreled guns only. IE; all slow powder loads whether

with starter powder or 4759,N110, 7383, use heavy barrels,

as the pressure curve is higher down the barrel

and might split regular skinny shotgun barrels.

F. We plan on heavy barrels for testing 1887 Win

leverguns, for Mossberg 695 bolt guns, for

various heavy double shotguns, for various

O/U, for modern alloy guns, etc.We are helping to

design a big falling block for 12ga diameter

that can take high full load pressures,

that is reasonably priced.. We plan on testing

other powders, for use with small primers. We

plan on setting up pressure testing barrel for

the long 3.85" case, to test the whole range

of slow powders and bullet weights, in the future.

The testing lab now can only do 3" 12ga cases.

We have found heatreated Dixie slugs that can

take super velocities, we found brass slugs with

relieved grooves that run same pressures as lead,

or copper jacketed, at same velocities.

We found 7383 powder pushes 870gr safely, full loads,

in 3 inch plastic, RMC 3" brass, etc cases.

This research and work is super great fun,

we are glad to share.We will get pictures soon of

the muzzle blast with long case, and pics

of penetration tests. Ed

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hubel458    0

Found another powder that works with small

primers in plastic and RMC cases. 600gr slug.

It is IMR 4227. Ignition perfect, same load

levels and velocities as 4759. My earlier

report of 4227 not working was in error

due to what looks like 4198 in a jug

hand labeled 4227 I got in big batch years ago.

Greg told me 4227 worked for him so I got new

jug, and saw the difference from jug I had.

So slower than shotgun,the powders that ignite

properly; we have 4759, VV-110, 4227, 7383 surplus,

the latter a slow powder that also works

with real heavy slugs Ed

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hubel458    0

Pressure tested 7383 with heavy powder load.

870 gr with 128 gr of 7383-- All that could

be put in REM plastic and keep length to what

would feed from magazine of a 3" gun,

after it was roll crimped with tool in drillpress.

1513 fps-- 14700 psi. That is a slug 50%

heavier than factory Buckhammer at little

faster speed and at little less pressure.

Ignition perfect, cases fall out.

Love that $3 a lb powder.Ed

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hubel458    0

Finally able to make the

longer barrel improvement on

the 1887 12ga levergun.......

Rifled and heavy and 31"

long. After many months finally got

a barrel.Ed

87up.jpg

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hubel458    0

With NEF. Plastic cases, roll crimped slug

in drillpress. 82gr IMR 4227 1650 fps,

with 730gr, 78 gr 4227 with 800gr, 1600.

Expansion on cases show little more pressure

as full loads of 4759 and 600gr.

Ignition perfect with small primers.

Ejects cases fine. Burns clean.

Got a GEHA bolt 12ga to put a heavier

rifled barrel on to test. Ed

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hubel458    0

Tested 870 gr in NEF with our long

brass case with big primer.I have NEF

with extra hammer spring for big primer.

Got 2000 fps and still able to extract case.

Would do little more, extractor needs

to be wider and set up positive.

Used 260gr of WC-860 and MagPro.

Could use RL-22, Rl-25, Retumbo, etc.

That's 7700 ft lbs.. I get 600 gr slug to

2300 plus in NEF, long case. so you can go

light or heavy.Ed

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hubel458    0

More testing with 4227. Greg got little over 1500 fps in

3" plastic with 870 gr slug using 74-75 gr of 4227.

I did the same. This compares to much lighter

REM Buckhammer slug with more speed. Almost all

the way through 5 ft bundle hardwood boards.

I have Mossy 695 as well as GEHA 12 gauge

to put heavy rifled barrels on. And my 87.

Will be checking Mossy 395

for a guy who wants to put on

a heavy barrel. Ed

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hubel458    0

Here is pic of 695 bolt action

Mossberg with dinky barrel and the heavy long

rifled barrel for it. It has a recoil plate

like Rem/Sav, and two rear bolt lugs..Ed

moss.jpg

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hubel458    0

tested in NEF 3" cases, Alliant 2400 with

small primers, Fired ok at 75 deg but when

case cooled there was majority of misfires

and squib loads. Don't reccomend it.

Here is picture of Mauser 12ga bolt action

GEHA with a heavy barrel like one I will put

on it. Make a good slug gun.Ed

geha.jpg

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hubel458    0

Saw info on a break action that

would handle 12ga FH.It is Cole,

with a strong top lock and real wide

strong extractor.Ed

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hubel458    0

Tested 3.5" plastic cases in NEF, small

primers. My chamber is long for our

long brass case, so they work fine.....

600 gr slug, 105 gr of IMR 4227,

got 2100. Same slug, 180 gr, 7383 surplus,

got 2100 fps. That's 5800 ft lbs from

plastic shotgun cases.Ed

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hubel458    0

Along with testing loads in 3.5" plastic, later tested same loads

in 3" RMC brass cases; and with 600gr slug, same wt 4227 and

7383 surplus powders got same 2100 fps.I got a MEC Super Sizer

coming to size base of plastic and RMC cases. Both are hard to

resize with regular die, but this will save time and allow many

more firings of the cases.Just got 3.5" plastic for dime each,

and this sizer will allow as many firings as the RMC brass.Ed

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hubel458    0

macshooter-the long plastic gives room for extra powder as well as

twice as much cushion wads to keep pressures from peaking to high.

But yet extra powder gets velocity up, with cases working ok.

And getting the base of the cases resized all the way to the rim

makes them stronger, like new, and last much longer. That is

where the MEC collet super sizer comes. And doing it with collet

sizer you don'r bend rim or base getting case out of a regular die.Ed

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hubel458    0

Here is picture of my 700H 3.25" cartridge gun. It fired today.

It is Enfield on heavy stock, heavy barrel, etc. I reamed out

Enfield so case would feed through reciever into chamber,

and I added two rear bolt locking lugs. Top half of front lugs

still contact also. The 700H is shorter version of my 3.87"

long 700HE, that is designed for little smaller than BMG actions.Ed

325b.jpg

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hubel458    0

For lighter practice loads using smaller amounts of

faster powders, these 16 ga wads fit perfect.Ed

325w.jpg

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macshooter    7
Here is picture of my 700H 3.25" cartridge gun. It fired today.

It is Enfield on heavy stock, heavy barrel, etc. I reamed out

Enfield so case would feed through reciever into chamber,

and I added two rear bolt locking lugs. Top half of front lugs

still contact also. The 700H is shorter version of my 3.87"

long 700HE, that is designed for little smaller than BMG actions.Ed

325b.jpg

Nice. :okay: wich I could see the end of the barrel. Big thick sonofabitch. You built that off an enfield action?

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hubel458    0

Barrel is 1.5" diameter breech to 1.4" muzzle. I will lighten it a little

when I have more time. The process I did on Enfield is to ream out

front ring. making hole bigger, like what was done making 12ga from

98 Mausers years ago. Then I added two bolt lugs in back. Nothing new,

just borrowed and improved on old technology. I figure lugs have a

50,000+ lb shear rating, which is 50 % higher than the Enfield ,Ruger,

CZ, Win,Savage, are originaly.Ed

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hubel458    0

The three From Hell cartridges----

My 28GA FH, 2nd Our 12GA FH, can

you guess the 3rd?. What do readers think. Ed

8fh.jpg

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hubel458    0

It is the 8GA From Hell, a real cartridge. 4.3 inch long

brass case. 8 ga shorter plastic case, plan on in same chamber.

The brass kiln gun case isn't as long as mine. Where do

you find the rare 8 ga brass kiln gun cases.

Looking now for guns or actions and barrels. I make it

from 20mm Suzy brass(20mm Hispano Suiza), by putting

on a 8ga size rim and reshaping like we did 12GA FH....Ed

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